Why This “Doctor on FIRE” Ignored the 4% Rule

Mindy:
Do you will have a profession that’s laborious to stroll away from? Whether or not it’s since you’ve invested money and time into your schooling or took the time to climb the company ladder to lastly be on the high? Can you actually stroll away if you hit the 4% rule and do you have to, we’ll break that down at the moment. Good day, howdy, howdy and welcome to the BiggerPockets Cash Podcast. My identify is Mindy Jensen and with me as all the time is my CEO on Fireplace Co-host Scott Trench.

Scott:
Thanks, Mindy. At all times nice to be right here doctoring up somebody’s financials right here. Trying ahead to it at the moment, BiggerPockets is a aim of making 1 million millionaires. You might be in the appropriate place if you wish to get your monetary home so as as a result of we actually imagine monetary freedom is attainable for everybody, irrespective of when or the place you’re beginning. We’re so excited to have Leaf doctor on fireplace right here on BiggerPockets cash at the moment. And Leaf, after all, for many who know him, began in an ideal spot to strategy fireplace. He’s a health care provider incomes a really excessive revenue and spent little or no out of the Midwest. No surprises that he was in a position to fulfill the monetary independence equation and do this between the frugality and the very excessive powered offense on the revenue entrance. However we’re additionally going to speak about his enterprise success, which he began Wall working full-time as an anesthesiologist and the way that’s parlayed into the final word early retirement and unimaginable choices. We’re additionally going to get into the mindset of truly retiring and the way you may actually need to go effectively past the 4% rule as a way to pull the set off.

Mindy:
Earlier than we get into go away story, we wish to thank our sponsor. This episode is delivered to you by Join, make investments actual property investing simplified and inside your attain. Now again to the present, leaf Darlene, doctor on fireplace. Welcome to the BiggerPockets Cash podcast. I’m so excited to speak to you.

Leif:
This must be plenty of enjoyable. I’m overdue to hitch you on the podcast, and so I’m glad we might be right here. I’m glad Scott was in a position to be part of us and this must be plenty of enjoyable.

Mindy:
This will likely be plenty of enjoyable. For these of you who have no idea, leaf is the person, the parable, the legend behind the Doctor on Fireplace Weblog and likewise not only a intelligent identify. He’s really a doctor. So Leaf, you will have an unfair benefit. That’s a phrase we use right here on the BiggerPockets Cash podcast, and your unfair benefit is that you simply make a boatload of cash since you’re a health care provider. How did you go from being a health care provider to being financially impartial? I imply, it doesn’t look like it’s that large of a stretch. Wow, you make some huge cash, you don’t spend some huge cash. You reserve it up, you make investments and then you definately retire. However there’s much more to it, particularly for someone who’s in a occupation that’s so carefully tied to your persona and your individual.

Leif:
Positive. Cheryl, you answered a part of the query for me. Earned so much. Saved so much invested, and lo and behold, we had sufficient cash to will we needed together with retire. However I feel one of many large challenges is the truth that there are expectations from society, perhaps from household, from mates, like, oh, you’re a health care provider, you’re a wealthy physician. And it begins if you’re in medical faculty, which is many, a few years for changing into a poor physician after which perhaps a long time away from being a wealthy physician. So the expectation to drive a specific kind of car or reside in a sure neighborhood, it’s undoubtedly there. And so I feel for me, simply my identification was considerably tied up in being a place, however I checked out it extra of a, that’s my job, that’s a profession, however it doesn’t outline me and it definitely doesn’t have to outline how I reside my life.
And I discovered it fairly simple to avoid wasting, imagine it or not, after I was making three to $400,000 a yr. However I definitely know many, many, many, many physicians who had related incomes energy and weren’t saving as a result of Ms. Delayed gratification that all of us cope with in our twenties usually results in an explosion of spending in our thirties. And I really feel like I used to be fairly effectively in a position to keep away from that. I married somebody who’ve each met and know had been comparatively frugal in comparison with our friends, even when we would appear like spend thrift in comparison with the common American family.

Mindy:
So I feel that that’s the level that I wish to dive into on this episode is you needed to make completely different decisions. I imply, you stated it your self, oh, I used to be making three or $400,000 a yr. How on earth did I retire so early? I suppose we’ll by no means know. It’s actually not troublesome to see the details, however there’s much more nuance to it. Such as you stated, docs drive fancy vehicles. They don’t drive HHR besides they do typically. And did you ever really feel like fellow docs had been form of trying down on you if you had been making these decisions that didn’t align with the normal wealthy physician vibe?

Leif:
I can virtually assure perhaps trying down isn’t the appropriate time period, however questioning and being curious and questioning why I hadn’t but upgraded to one thing higher to drive. However the reality is I didn’t care that a lot what I drove, and it definitely helps to not care an excessive amount of about what different individuals assume. Like in rural Minnesota, rural Michigan, only a few individuals drive very nice autos and in case you do, which may get you some envy. It’d get some bizarre seems to be like who does he assume he’s form of factor, proper? I’m not in the place I’m making an attempt to valet park my little Chevrolet when there’s Lamborghinis and Ferraris throughout the nicer vehicles within the physician’s parking zone may be a Ford F-150. Possibly they acquired the Raptor model or one thing, however it was not, the Midwest, as you already know, is just not as showy, for lack of a greater phrase. It’s another locations on the planet. So residing in comparatively low value of residing areas and locations the place modesty is a advantage definitely makes it simpler to reside the way in which we did.

Scott:
I feel that there’s not plenty of, it is smart, proper? Mid six determine wage, center class way of life within the Midwest, numbers are going to work out. You don’t need to be an ideal investor, though I do know that you’re a nice investor and since you index fund the index fund, so that you’re an ideal investor, fairly simple to be. Nice.
Yeah, there’s a giant bull market, so not laborious I feel to know the way you obtain fireplace on the highest stage. All that should move is a few years and the wealth will start to compound actually properly in that entrance. However I don’t assume lots of people got down to grow to be docs in order that they’ll retire early. That’s probably not the overall life path there. I feel there’s extra to it round fireplace within the idea of being a health care provider that’s extra of a psychological problem. Are you able to stroll us by means of how you concentrate on really leaving the medical occupation as soon as the numbers make sense?

Leif:
Yeah, and I wish to make clear, and I don’t assume you actually made that accusation or no matter it might be, however I definitely didn’t enter the occupation with the aim of retiring early from it. Oh, after all not. It was a type of issues the place I used to be good at science and math and graduated high of my class and my grandpa was a health care provider and my dad and his dad had been dentists. We needed to have healthcare within the blood. It was form of an, I don’t wish to say apparent choice, however it was a type of issues I knew I may do and selected to do and it was an excellent steady profession. And so I discovered my approach into anesthesiology and about 10 years into it, into my profession that’s after school, after medical faculty, after a 4 yr residency after which 10 years in, I used to be at a spot the place I like my job all proper, however I all the time like my days off much more, my weeks off much more than that. And I suppose the query is how do you cease making that $400,000 a yr and be okay with it?
One factor that makes my case only a horrible check case, horrible case research, is the truth that after I did uncover monetary independence and it was what, 20 14, 20 15, I noticed it was an entire space of research that I had form of ignored. I knew sufficient to put money into mutual funds and to not purchase entire life insurance coverage, however I didn’t know all that a lot about private finance or investing and I had by no means heard about monetary independence till I found these fireplace blogs and I knew that different docs had been in the identical boat. I most likely had extra of an curiosity in it than most individuals in my occupation and I nonetheless didn’t know a lot. So I made a decision to start out a web site speaking about it. You talked about it within the intro place on fireplace and I’ve since moved on and bought the location to a few enterprising physicians who’re doing an excellent job with it they usually’ve had it of their fingers for the final, virtually a yr and a half now.
However what makes my a case research horrible is the truth that I made extra cash doing that whereas I used to be working it after which after I bought it. However the reality is I found monetary independence or let’s say 2015 and that my investments realized on the time spending about 70,000 a yr. Now that is after our mortgage was paid off after my pupil loans had been paid off, all of that, our bills had been fairly modest, 70,000 a yr, seven years in the past, most likely nearer to 100 thousand a yr now, however we’re financially impartial. After I discovered about it, I simply did the numbers like 25 instances that, yeah, that’s about the place we’re at. I labored one other 4 or 5 years in anesthesia, and so I might’ve been between the extra cash I made and saved throughout that extra 4 to 5 years and the funding returns on our nest egg, which was already about 25 XI even with out the web site would’ve retired with most likely fairly near double what I might should be financially impartial. After which the earnings from working a reasonably profitable on-line enterprise after which promoting it put us even one other stage past that. So financially the choice was simple to make.

Mindy:
You stated after you found the idea of economic independence and also you’d discovered that you simply had been financially impartial already, you continued to work for 4 or 5 extra years. Why did you proceed to work?

Leif:
I favored the job. It actually did. I simply would’ve felt, I don’t know, to me irresponsible to only stroll away as quickly as I had the cash in my hand. I favored the place we had been residing. I simply didn’t actually wish to make a drastic change and a part of beginning that weblog and writing about it and placing my ideas on the market for the world to learn and react to and reply to was a great way for me to work by means of the funds, the psychological affect, all of that. It actually helped me form of solidify I needed to do the place I used to be at and acquired various good suggestions. Different individuals in related conditions, how would they strategy selecting retirement versus working part-time, which I did the final two years, and so I form of eased into it, however it wasn’t a lot a part of my identification that my ego would endure if I wasn’t working as an anesthesiologist. And so I discovered that over the course of these three to 5 years by excited about it, writing about it, and even working towards some mini retirement type methods.

Mindy:
Keep tuned for extra from Leaf on why the 4% rule didn’t work for him and why most individuals don’t use it at the moment. After a fast break, welcome again. We’re right here with Leaf dalene. Let’s bounce again in

Scott:
Leaf mechanically, how do you fund your way of life? Is it from dividends out of your portfolio? Is it from these different forms of revenue streams? How do you really pull cash out of your funding portfolio to fund your way of life full time?

Leif:
Yeah, that’s an ideal query, Scott. The plan I had was such as you talked about, dividends from a taxable investments, that are primarily index funds, an actual property fund or two, after which I might promote heaps which have the least quantity of acquire to reduce my capital positive factors taxes. And I’ve been gathering on a 4 57 B account, which is a deferred compensation account that I grew to, once more, a number of six figures to repeat that phrase over my 13 yr anesthesia profession. And so I get just a few thousand a month from that. So I had all of it deliberate out after which I bought the weblog and I self-financed a good portion of that. And so I get a test each month that covers our bills and that may final for fairly some time. So once more, horrible check case. I did have a plan and it was working, however now I don’t really want that plan. I’ve this plan B.

Mindy:
So if you began the weblog, did you begin it with the concept that you had been going to promote it will definitely or did you begin it simply as one thing enjoyable to do?

Leif:
I didn’t actually take into consideration an finish sport or an exit plan. I imply, in case you would’ve requested me again then, do you assume this can become profitable? I’d be like, effectively, I imply if it makes 100 bucks a month, that’d be actually cool. However I didn’t anticipate it to do approach higher than that. I suppose I did understand perhaps a few three years in that this actually is an asset that sometime might be bought. And when you will have a enterprise that’s very a lot one individual targeted, you wish to, in case you assume you may wish to take that exit sometime, you form of have to tug your self again just a little bit from the main target and make it extra concerning the reader, which I form of all the time tried to do. However as soon as I noticed, oh, it is a enterprise time to remain weblog, I attempted to guarantee that my focus was on the reader and never simply a web-based diary or right here’s, right here’s me, right here’s what I’m doing. This isn’t about me, that is about you.

Scott:
One of many issues that has bugged me for fireplace and for numerous BP cash listeners is this idea of no one really ever retires on the 4% rule. It’s the math of sound. We’ve exhausted that. We’ve talked to the originator of the 4% rule, the Trinity Research, invoice Bangin, we’ve talked to Michael Kites who has expanded on that work and refined it and polished it, made it actually shiny. So we’ve talked about it then we’re not questioning the mathematics, however no one ever really acts on that. Once more, in case you discover that one who is really a 4% rule early retiree with no different revenue streams, no giant money cushion, no social safety, please refer ’em to the BiggerPockets Cash podcast. We might like to interview them. We have now by no means discovered that individual and I don’t assume we ever will. What’s hanging about your scenario is just not that you simply’re irregular, however that’s each early retiree we’ve talked to has this that’s really residing the early retiree way of life and isn’t working. Producing revenue has these ACEs within the gap. One thing else past that, like an enormous actual property portfolio or a big money place or a pension or a enterprise or a aspect hustle or they work, I went again to work or their wifi, that’s a well-liked one too. However I’m extra interested in moving into your head right here and considering, do you assume you’ll have been in a position to retire on the 4%

Leif:
Rule and make that leap? And after I was blocking, I wrote up an investor coverage assertion and in that I stated that I might retire with 40 to 50 x hour spending and Y a lot that offers me a two to 2 and a half p.c withdrawal fee, which is sort of a bit decrease than 4%. And there are just a few causes I figured I needed that cushion to permit myself to spend extra to permit for inflation because of the truth that I nonetheless form of loved working. It wasn’t like a hardship or a travesty to proceed to work and since I already had 25 x, effectively, if that goes up 10%, that’s one other 2.5. And I used to be making a a number of of our annual spending so I may put aside about three x per yr. So yearly that I labored, I may be including about 5 years value of spending between my funding returns and my earnings after we had been spending so little.
So it simply appeared like, yeah, it appears effectively value it to proceed on one other 4 to 5 years in what on the time was a reasonably new job whereas my children had been younger and going to be at school. So with out, I can return and take a look at that and that was written with no assumption of any on-line revenue and say that’s the place I might’ve been comfy. So we’re in that two to 2 and a half p.c withdrawal fee based mostly on what our spending was then. But in addition understanding that in retirement that may change. You’re going to, in our case, journey extra, which is costlier than staying dwelling. We’re going to probably remorse the vehicles that we drive. You by no means know, and we most likely, yeah, I suppose we have now upgraded. We purchased our first new automobile in retirement. So simply understanding that there are numerous unknowns and it’s the unknown unknowns that I needed to have that giant cushion for.

Mindy:
Do you imagine within the 4% rule, do you imagine that 4% is a withdrawal fee that’s sustainable? You talked about 2.5 and I do know that leans extra in direction of large earn and his thought course of and the 4% rule is initially meant for a 30 yr timeline and also you God keen will likely be a for much longer timeline, which is the place large earns recommendation and proposals in direction of the decrease finish.

Leif:
Yeah, glorious level. That’s another excuse, however I do, I feel the 4% rule can work for certain, and for some individuals they’re not including 4 or 5 years value of spending yearly that they work. They may be including a half years value of spending yearly that they work. And so boy, to get that far past 4% may be a hardship. It may be a decade or extra. So I imply you may take a look at the historic information one million other ways children has, baker has Invoice Bein has and the Trinity research, all of that. I’ve definitely checked out all of it and yeah, it’s sound for a 30 yr timeframe. There’s a really, very, excellent likelihood that you’ll not run out of cash. So yeah, I suppose my reply is I do imagine it will probably work, however I assumed it will be simple sufficient to only work just a little longer, another yr, 4 extra instances and yeah,

Scott:
That’s it. That that’s the factor is once more, I feel what’s tremendous worthwhile for individuals listening right here is right here’s a man who’s really retired 300 bucks time within the observe, meet the native highschool and who is aware of the mathematics in addition to anybody. You actually ran the web site doctor on fireplace for years, which is a superb fireplace web site that talks concerning the 4% rule and a lot of these issues. But your coverage assertion doesn’t can help you retire on the 4% rule. By the way in which, neither does mine. Mine’s posted publicly on BiggerPockets web site round that. I ain’t retiring on the 4% rule on that and nothing else as a result of I’ve interviewed too many individuals to know that no one’s thoughts really works that approach with simply that stage of wealth. You crossed the edge to fireplace, however you’re not really retiring early on that stage of wealth, even when that’s what you do all day lengthy.
And the mathematics in addition to anyone within the business, and that’s the phenomenon that fascinates me right here on BiggerPockets cash is the 4% crossing. The 4% rule threshold is the place to begin. Now the journey to truly retiring begins and that always takes individuals a number of years of transition or comes with a lot abundance that it’s form of like, what the heck did I am going to work for at the moment on this? Which we sometimes have crossed on finance Fridays the place the man’s job was clearly simply holding him again and was a totally waste of time relative to the general monetary place.

Leif:
I can’t say that I received’t ever actually work once more. I imply one thing may simply cross my plate that simply feels like actually cool or it may be one thing that I begin independently alone. I’m 48 years previous at the moment and tomorrow and the subsequent day, so I’ve acquired loads of time and youth and the sound thoughts I feel to do one thing completely different if I select to. Proper now it’s nonetheless fairly recent. I’m just a little greater than 5 years retired from medication. I’m a few yr and a half retired from running a blog and I’ve spent most of that final yr constructing this home, shifting into it, making it our personal and touring in the summertime and being a stay-at-home Dad married to a stay-at-home mother, however it’s all very recent and in some unspecified time in the future, particularly after we’re in an empty nest scenario, perhaps I’ll really feel in a different way about being retired and staying actually retired.
So if I come again on the present in 5 years, perhaps I might have a really completely different perspective and I by no means attempt to make long-term plans greater than a few 5 yr plan as a result of man plans, God laughs, proper? It’s going to be very completely different it doesn’t matter what I feel it’s going to appear like in 5 years, whether or not because of exterior circumstances or inside motivations and you alter your thoughts and who is aware of. So I’m not saying I’m not going to announce something. I don’t have something to announce, however I do know sufficient to not say that right here I’m, I’m retired and I’m by no means going to work once more as a result of that’s not how,

Scott:
That is the smooth launch of smaller pockets from Leaf from 2027 that we simply heard right here. So adore it right here.

Mindy:
We have now to take one last break, however extra from leaf on life after Phi after we’re again. Welcome again to the present.

Scott:
Let me ask you one other query right here that pertains to this query across the 4% rule and why I feel only a few individuals really cease working on the 4% rule. Let’s say that my aim is let’s use 100 thousand {dollars} in annual spend and the aim is 30 instances that quantity, so it’s $3 million in wealth, after which you will have a yr like final yr or the yr earlier than the place the inventory market goes up 20 percentish from that time. So now you bought 3.6 million, which is 36 instances and perhaps you’re effectively previous it, perhaps it’s been 5 or 6 years since that time and there’s a lot greater than what you had meant at your retirement, which I feel is definitely going to be a traditional as a result of the 4% rule once more is so conservative that the majority eventualities find yourself with wealth being a lot higher,

Leif:
Proper? You began at {that a} hundred thousand and regulate for inflation, not adjusting on your portfolio in any respect in case you’re doing it by,

Scott:
That’s proper. Should you’re simply in shares in that portfolio that’s occurred to everybody who fired 5, 6, 7 years in the past for instance, from a relative wealth perspective, even after accounting for inflation round that. And so how does that change the attitude on life and money and time at that time? Do you are feeling like an obligation to some extent to do extra journey improve issues to a fancier stage, purchase the great automobile? How does that change your perspective when what I feel is the common end result for folk in your scenario which have retired 5, six years in the past transpires over a few years?

Leif:
Nicely, I suppose what you’re saying is that anybody who retired in my cohort of that 5 to 6 years in the past, 4 or 5, six years in the past, we’ve seen great inventory market returns over that timeframe. And what we’ve completed primarily is survive essentially the most vital interval the place a adverse sequence of returns can actually make the remainder of your monetary life just a little tougher. It makes it much less possible that your cash goes to develop over the 30 yr interval as a result of if in that 5 years and an important years for survival of your portfolio is about two years earlier than you retire to about 5 years after there’s that seven, perhaps 10 yr timeframe the place if the inventory market goes down every of these years and you might be spending now, it’s going to be a bit greater than 4%, perhaps it’s 5%, perhaps it’s 6%. Should you’re going by the e book beginning with 4% of the preliminary steadiness and adjusting with inflation every year and ignoring the precise worth of the steadiness of the portfolio, then you definately’re really spending a bigger and bigger proportion.
Now in that scenario, a human may say, I’m not going to stay with this. Purchase the e book 4% of what I began with adjusted for inflation. I can see that I’ve 28% much less {dollars} than I did two or three years in the past. I’m going to spend much less. We’re going to take one much less trip. We’re going to postpone shopping for a brand new automobile to switch the used automobile. And so that you’re asking concerning the reverse. Nicely, we’re not actually prone to succumbing to a poor sequence of returns. And I feel you’re proper that we may select to spend a bit greater than the components may counsel. On the flip aspect, increase, instances are usually adopted by bust instances. There’s plenty of volatility through the years. So that you don’t wish to go hog wild. You don’t wish to do a reset after they run up of fifty% or one hundred percent. You don’t wish to get, okay, now it’s 4% of the three.6 million as a result of the 4% rule does account for good instances and unhealthy instances. However in case you’ve solely seen good instances and also you do a reset, now once more, you might be prone to sequence of returns going downward, which they most likely will within the not too distant future.

Scott:
So the reply is don’t transfer the goalposts, that’s it. And the pile will get larger and greater, which simply continues to create to maintain issues very steady, however you simply don’t transfer the goalpost and that simply offers you increasingly more and increasingly more safety. And it feels like the opposite a part of it’s you’re simply content material with precisely what you will have from a life-style perspective. And there’s additionally most likely not that pull too with withdrawal greater than what you will have. Are these elements coming in?

Leif:
Yeah, that’s good. I’m not saying that you need to by no means spend your funding returns as a result of most of us who’re following, not even the 4% rule, however one thing lower than which might be going to finish up with piles of cash after we die, until we give it away whereas we’re nonetheless alive or select to spend so much extra. And I feel the youthful you might be, the extra cautious you need to be as a result of I nonetheless know that I may have a 50 plus yr investing timeframe, however my mother and father who simply came visiting, they’re of their late seventies and their investments have completed effectively lately. I’m not going to inform them to forego that $30,000 journey to South Africa that they took or no matter it may be, proper? They’re at a degree the place they don’t want to fret about 50 years, 20, 25, that’s a chance. However 50 plus, no, it’s extremely unlikely. And until there are scientific advances which might be coming and coming quickly that may blow us all away.

Mindy:
What’s the greatest distinction between what you thought retirement was going to be like and what actuality really is?

Leif:
I feel I most likely assumed I might be extra productive. Are you aware Parkinson’s regulation?

Mindy:
I don’t.

Leif:
Yeah,

Scott:
Scott. I imagine that’s the one the place time or a activity will swell to fill the time that you simply allot to it.

Leif:
Precisely. Precisely. So when you will have limitless time, the issues that you simply wish to accomplish have an infinite timeframe and no deadline. And so I discover it’s a lot simpler to procrastinate and issues that I would’ve gotten completed in a weekend as a result of I’ve the weekend and that’s all I had, effectively, I’ll work on it and I’ll putz round for an hour or two right here and an hour or two there, however there’s a lot much less urgency in a lot of these issues that, oh, I’ll get to it will definitely. So I suppose I assumed I might be extra productive in sure methods, and I feel I’ve discovered a steadiness the place I love to do various things all through the day and never simply concentrate on one factor all day lengthy.

Mindy:
Yeah, the productiveness facet. I’m not retired, however my husband is, and I’ve seen him as quickly as he was completed working, he’s like, that is my time now. I’ve to run in every single place and be so quick on a regular basis and simply produce, produce, produce. And I used to be like, or you possibly can take a break as a result of now you’re retired and now he’s morphing into the, it takes so much longer to get issues completed as a result of I don’t wish to say there’s no sense of urgency and I’m definitely not throwing him underneath the bus.

Leif:
In all probability a greater sense of steadiness, proper?

Mindy:
Sure. It’s okay to learn an entire e book that doesn’t train you something. It’s okay to go and run a marathon if that’s your jam, which it’s not mine, however I hope you win.

Leif:
Yeah, no, that’s undoubtedly, undoubtedly true. Earlier than the, we began recording, we had been speaking about what we did on the weekend and I used to be like, gosh, which days had been the weekend? Oh yeah. Let’s see. We had a household gathering and I made a bunch of pizzas after which I watched soccer the remainder of Saturday and a lot of the Sunday too. And that’s okay. I get pleasure from soccer. Didn’t get so much completed this weekend.

Mindy:
Yeah, but additionally, what else do it’s important to do?

Leif:
Speak to you, speak to Scott.

Mindy:
Yeah, precisely. I imply, I feel it’s completely legitimate to take your time and revel in your life.

Leif:
I

Scott:
Make dinner most days. Yeah. Alright, effectively Lee, thanks a lot for approaching at the moment and sharing your story with us. Thanks for sharing my day within the lifetime of retirement seems to be like and being so open concerning the precise actuality of getting well past it from a monetary standpoint earlier than making a leap. Tremendous fascinating. Congratulations in your unbelievable retirement and your multi marathon. Your mornings you will have received’t even run the total marathons on there. That’s simply buying and selling for you it feels like at this level. So congrats on that and might’t wait to see what the subsequent couple of years convey for and final. Tremendous excited for the launch of smaller pockets.

Leif:
I acquired to test that earlier than you do. If I sign off fast, you already know why area identify.com

Mindy:
Leaf, it was nice to speak to you. Thanks a lot on your time at the moment and we’ll speak to you quickly.

Leif:
Sounds good. Thanks, Mindy. Thanks, Scott. We’ll see you quickly.

Mindy:
That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Cash Podcast. He after all is the Scott Trench, and I’m Mindy Jensen saying, take a bow, Highland Cow.